[00:04] Introduction – Custom Boxes
Roel van Gils: Welcome to another new episode of “Tussen de Stellingen” from Warehouse and Logistics Benelux. You’ve probably been there. You order something online—something small, maybe a few parts and accessories, or a product that would easily fit through the mail slot. A few days later, there’s a huge box on your doorstep. You open it up, and there’s your product, surrounded by air and often some cardboard, paper, or other packing material to keep the small product from sliding around inside that huge box. Today we’re going to talk about a solution that actually makes a lot of sense: packaging the product.
Roel van Gils: Joining me at the table is Jeroen Brabers from Packsize. Jeroen, welcome.
Jeroen Brabers: Thank you.
Roel van Gils: Jeroen, please introduce yourself.
Jeroen Brabers: Well, my name is Jeroen. I’ve been working for Packsize for a little over a year now. Before that, I worked at Sparck Technologies, the company that was recently acquired by Packsize. And yes, we do make custom boxes.
Roel van Gils: Yes, custom boxes. It’s a broad term, of course. What exactly do you do? Maybe a brief overview of: Who are you? Where are you from?
[01:04] A box tailored to the product
Jeroen Brabers: What we’ve actually been trying to do—and have been doing for quite a few years now—is figure out how big the box needs to be for the item you want to pack. So, if—for example—you wanted to pack a water glass, like the one I see here in front of me, you might not have a standard box for it. What we do in that case is measure the product and make a custom box for it.
Roel van Gils: So, can we actually take that “customized” part quite literally?
Jeroen Brabers: That’s meant literally. In two forms. It can be done using a “box-first” solution or a “box-last” solution. Yes, “box-first”—that basically means this: you retrieve the dimensions of, in this case, a water glass from your WMS system. It could also be a water glass along with a cup and saucer, or a small box of coasters. The system calculates how much volume such a box needs to have, then customizes the box to those dimensions, and you’re good to go. In most cases, no additional packing material is needed. You close the box, label it, and it’s ready for shipment.
Roel van Gils: And you call that the "box-first" principle?
Jeroen Brabers: That's the "box-first" principle.
Roel van Gils: So, based on data from the WMS.
Jeroen Brabers: Exactly. On the other hand, there’s the “box-load” principle. The difference is that with this method, you bring your products—in this case, for example, your water glass and your box of coasters—to the machine. You press start after placing the products on the machine. A 3D scan is created of what you’ve placed on the machine. The machine immediately creates a custom-fit box, folds it around the product or products, seals it with tape or glue, adds a shipping label, and—once again—the box is ready for shipment.
Roel van Gils: So basically, you're saying that the box is no longer the starting point; rather, the product itself is the starting point.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, that’s well put. A limited range of boxes. So this way, we create less air space in the boxes. We’re definitely going back to 0% air using the box-loading principle.
Roel van Gils: Oh, really—zero? They're really skirting around the issue, yeah, so to speak.
Jeroen Brabers: Yeah, well, okay. Of course, here and there you still end up with some air left in a glass, for example. But it’s made as small as you can possibly imagine. And there’s no filler material in it anymore either. That’s a very important point.
[03:31] Why Standard Box Sizes Were the Norm for So Long
Roel van Gils: Because for years we’ve been used to boxes in standard sizes. Why was there such a strong resistance to changing that?
Jeroen Brabers: It’s very simple, of course. So, with four, five, or ten different box sizes, you can pack just about anything. And if you need filling material, that’s easy to get, too. Until recently, there actually wasn’t any legislation regarding this. So you can just go ahead and use it. And if it reasonably meets your process needs, it’s often perfectly fine. The consumer experience is becoming increasingly important. As a consumer—and we’ve probably all been there—you receive a huge box that contains almost nothing. And you think to yourself: “Is this really necessary?”
Roel van Gils: Yes.
Jeroen Brabers: It also has to do with how much it costs to ship a box. A box is relatively inexpensive. And the shipping label actually always costs the same. If it’s bigger than a letterbox-sized box, the size doesn’t really matter anymore. It’s the same amount.
Roel van Gils: Yeah, so it's actually pretty easy—at least it used to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeroen Brabers: And you also have to keep in mind that when you’re standing at a packing table as a packer—the person who actually has to do the packing—you want to be sure that the product in front of you will fit in a particular box. So they’d rather grab a box that might be a size too big than one that turns out to be too small and forces them to start over. Because they’re judged on how many boxes they pack per hour.
[05:01] When Customization Becomes Attractive
Roel van Gils: Well, of course, your solutions sound great. But when do they actually become interesting? When does customization become interesting?
Jeroen Brabers: It goes without saying: the more boxes you pack per day, the easier it becomes to achieve a return on investment. But we also shouldn’t underestimate how many other factors can play a role in the decision to purchase a machine or implement a solution. On the one hand, there’s cost reduction, of course. On the other hand, you also want to reduce your reliance on labor—especially when workers are harder to find or becoming more expensive.
Roel van Gils: Yes.
Jeroen Brabers: Plus, you can still produce a lot of boxes with very few people—especially as your cutoff time approaches. So you can also use that to facilitate your growth. And a lot of our customers simply feel it’s important to ship as little air and cardboard as possible.
Roel van Gils: Yes, yes. I support sustainability in that sense.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, that’s right. And that’s aside from the cost savings we can achieve once we reach a certain number of boxes. Those are, of course, very important KPIs as well. But to answer your question: when it comes to cost savings, you’re looking at somewhere between 500 and 1,000 boxes per day. If you want to ship that many every day, then our machine becomes a viable option. That’s when our solution comes into play.
Roel van Gils: So, to go back a bit: a small change to the packaging affects multiple links in the chain. Volume, less air—you name it.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, but this is also something that shouldn’t be underestimated: you no longer need to keep a huge number of boxes in stock. Our machines use what we call “endless cardboard.” It’s actually stacked sheets of cardboard. And they’re all the same size, though the width can vary slightly. Packaging material becomes much simpler compared to having to keep track of twenty or thirty different box sizes.
[07:12] The Right Time to Automate
Roel van Gils: A question many entrepreneurs might ask: When should you actually start automating? What’s the right time?
Jeroen Brabers: Well, a lot of entrepreneurs realize that too late. We always try to make this point: it’s better to start walking now than to have to run later. You’ll also notice that the moment you start talking with us, a large part of your own logistics process comes under scrutiny. How are you going to get the products to the machine the right way? How are you going to get them away from it? Where’s your storage? How many people do you need at each location? So you often find that once you sit down with us, it also has an impact on the rest of your process.
Roel van Gils: Yes, that's right. So you shouldn't wait until the capacity is actually exhausted?
Jeroen Brabers: No. And I always say: feel free to talk to us—you don’t have to commit to a solution right away. We’d all love to explain what we can do for you, yes.
Roel van Gils: And so it doesn't stop with just that machine. The entire process is being reevaluated—by you all as well.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, yes, that’s right. We’re always keeping an eye on things. We’ll also always be able to offer suggestions or feedback—which we’re always happy to do. Ultimately, we’re not the ones redesigning an entire warehouse, but we do always contribute our ideas throughout that process.
[08:29] From the EM7 to the X5 and X6
Roel van Gils: We've discussed a few solutions so far.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, since the merger of Packsize and Sparck, we’ve had an incredibly wide range of machines. I think it’s currently the widest range on the market. And it actually starts with the EM7. That’s a low-automation machine. And it essentially makes it possible to pack what we sometimes call “uglies” in the industry, or your “unhappy flow”—really awkward products. And you still want to package them, don’t you? We’re working with a company that makes bumpers, hoods—that sort of thing. You can basically measure the product and say, “I want this box made now.” And it can make a box large enough to package a hood, a bumper, a lamp, a table, and so on. But the capacity there is only about 100 to 150 packages per hour.
Roel van Gils: You're serious about that, right?
Jeroen Brabers: For those high-volume items, that’s often more than enough. Now, we have the box-first solutions starting with the X5. Then there’s the X6. The difference lies in the hourly capacity: about 600 per hour for the X5 and around 1,200 for the X6. And those are the box-first solutions. So those are the machines that... Then we actually have the box-last solutions. And we’re talking about the CVP Impack and the CVP Everest, which can produce 500 boxes per hour and up to 1,100 boxes per hour, respectively.
[10:21] How Box Loaders Work
Roel van Gils: So how do those machines work?
Jeroen Brabers: Well, those are the box-loading solutions where you place the product on the conveyor belt. The operator presses start, and at that moment, a 3D scan of the order is created. Then, a custom-sized box is cut right there at the bottom of the machine.
Roel van Gils: So that’s the range from Box First to Box Last. Does that mean you’ve basically covered your entire range?
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, we have a few more variations related to this. For example, we have the option to combine the X6 with what’s called a lidder. So it’s about making a lid. That means you use the X6 to make a box for your conveyor belt, and at that moment, the lidder makes a lid for that box.
Roel van Gils: Okay.
Jeroen Brabers: So that’s how we try to combine these technologies. We also still have gluing machines for very low-automation solutions. We do have a number of other products in our lineup, but these are the main ones.
Roel van Gils: And I also understand that a mailbox package is one of the options, right?
Jeroen Brabers: At a rate of 1,100 boxes per hour, you can also make a box that’s low enough to fit through a mailbox. Yes, and that’s obviously very interesting if you have products that can do that, because not only is your shipping label more cost-effective, but your chances of successful delivery are much higher, and people don’t have to be home.
[11:54] Sizes and Weight
Roel van Gils: Because when we're talking about sizes and weights, what range should we be thinking of?
Jeroen Brabers: Well, we actually say starting at one. Making a box. Weight isn’t really a limitation for us. In the sense that we can easily pack a 25-kilo box. You do have to use the right cardboard for that, though. And there’s some flexibility there. We do say, though: if you want to pack 500 25-kilo packages per hour, you might need to look into a different solution—or two machines. Of course, the machine’s components do take a beating from heavy products.
[12:36] Distinctive technology
Roel van Gils: What makes your technology so unique?
Jeroen Brabers: The key USPs of our Box First solutions are, in fact, that they operate at very high speeds and that we can package a wide range of products using the boxes we manufacture. The Box Last solution is unique because it allows you to package multi-line orders as well. So that means—as I always say during a sales pitch—the moment you can lay out the products on the table in front of you, we’ll package them. Of course, it’s tricky to package four loose tennis balls because they roll away. But we can package much more than that. Items stay in place much better on a conveyor belt than most people think. And that’s something we do significantly better than our competitors.
Roel van Gils: But those products are stacked by an operator, so to speak?
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, that's correct. Yes, we also provide training for that. So before a machine is put into service, we have what we call a training period. We stay with the machine for as long as necessary to train the operators, but also to train the on-site technical staff in minor maintenance.
Roel van Gils: Yes, so actually, apart from that tennis ball, there’s no conceivable situation where the machine would say, “Sorry, this doesn’t fit into my process.”.
Jeroen Brabers: You can also package a tennis ball. You’d just have to figure out a way to do it. If, for example, you say, “I’m also sending a tennis shirt,” you can place those four balls on top of the shirt so they don’t roll away. Yes, there are little holders, tubes, and things like that.
Roel van Gils: All these possibilities.
Jeroen Brabers: The nice thing is that every customer always has a handful of small solutions for things that are a bit trickier. For example, a rubber band wrapped around two cylindrical products. And those are small solutions that go a long way.
Roel van Gils: Of course, you come across all sorts of things like that in your day-to-day work, right? Products and everything else. Yeah, that’s where you have to get creative.
Jeroen Brabers: Absolutely. The challenge of my job is that I’m at a different company every day.
Roel van Gils: But I’ll also take what I’ve learned, of course, and apply it to other projects.
Jeroen Brabers: Absolutely.
[14:46] Personalization and Online Printing
Roel van Gils: And there's also an interesting marketing angle to that, right? Because you can also offer an online printing service.
Jeroen Brabers: That’s right. We can add a personalized print to every box. That’s an option we offer. You basically get a printer. It can simply say: “Hey, Jan, thanks for your order.” Or it can actually have your name on it. You can print a brand name on it. Logos. All of that is possible.
Roel van Gils: Individually?
Jeroen Brabers: On a case-by-case basis, per order.
Roel van Gils: So does that mean the box also becomes a means of communication in that sense?
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, definitely. And now that we’re on the subject: X5 Nozomi is actually a box-first solution that incorporates a very large print unit. Yes, and that print unit creates a custom full-color box for each order, so there’s really nothing you can think of that this printer can’t handle. And that means your entire logo in full color. So you’re creating a true full-color print that’s ready to ship right away.
Roel van Gils: Does that mean we need a different type of cardboard?
Jeroen Brabers: That has quite a few implications. It's not a simple solution.
Roel van Gils: But is it already available, or is it coming soon? It's still in development.
Jeroen Brabers: We have a prototype up and running now. And we're in the early stages of discussions with potential customers. But it's definitely going to happen.
Roel van Gils: Because, as you can see, there really is a demand for that. Yes, that demand is for more specialization.
Jeroen Brabers: Well, that’s obviously something there’s a lot of demand for. You can see how much marketing value packaging has gained in recent years. Yes. And we definitely need to capitalize on that.
[16:40] PPWR and Reduction of Dead Space
Roel van Gils: And something that obviously works in your favor is the new European regulation.
Jeroen Brabers: The PPWR program. Yes, definitely. I think we’ll all benefit from it. But of course, it’s very interesting for our sales pitch.
Roel van Gils: Could you explain that a bit? What does that mean for the packaging?
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, that’s a regulation related to sustainability and CO₂ reduction—the requirement to increasingly use recycled materials. Our machines are capable of processing recycled cardboard. In addition—and this is a very important point—volume reduction is becoming increasingly important. So, what percentage of air—excess air—are you still allowed to include in your packaging? Can you still include it in your packaging? And legislation on this is becoming increasingly strict. It’s already in effect, albeit in a mild form. Yes, starting in 2030, you will not be allowed to ship more than 50% of air.
Roel van Gils: That's actually quite a lot.
Jeroen Brabers: 50% sounds like a lot. But just take a look at what your average package looks like—the ones you’ll be receiving over the next few weeks or months. You’ll likely find that it’s well above that 50%.
Roel van Gils: Yes, of course, that also depends on the product.
Jeroen Brabers: That depends on the product, yes. But it's about excess air.
Roel van Gils: Excess Air.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, so if you, for example, take that glass of water as an example again. When you bring it inside, the contents of that glass are, of course, air. But that’s not excess air. There’s really nothing you can do about that. But the point is that the cardboard box around it shouldn’t be able to hold four glasses as well.
Roel van Gils: Oh, I see.
Jeroen Brabers: Or three. That’s the point. That the volume is reduced. By the way, filler material is counted as excess air. So you can’t just say, “I’ll take a box that’s too big, stuff it full of filler material, and that’ll do the trick.” It doesn’t work that way.
Roel van Gils: But you mentioned that this legislation is now in effect in a "light" form. And what does "light" mean? What percentage of air is still allowed?
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, right now there’s a bit less focus on reducing air content and more on recycled materials. But I advise everyone to take a close look at what this means for their organization. Because there’s still a lot of uncertainty. But the fact is, it’s here. And it’s going to take on new forms. And everyone will feel the effects of that. And we, as consumers, will feel those effects too. You’ll see fewer trucks on the road and less waste in the world, so I think that’s really good for all of us, yes.
Roel van Gils: Okay, so don't use more packaging than is necessary.
Jeroen Brabers: Actually, yes. That's been our message for years anyway.
[19:23] Further development and customer-focused adjustments
Roel van Gils: Yeah, I see. I understand that you're also working on some developments. Yeah, that's right—even a combination of machines.
Jeroen Brabers: Well, that’s actually what I just mentioned. We’re going to combine the X6 with a capping machine that we already had from another solution. In addition, we’re, of course, always working on improving our current machines—looking for areas where we can make adjustments. We also often receive customer-specific requests. They’ll say, “We’d like this or that,” or ask if the machine can do something specific. “Can you make a modification to make that possible?” We have a team dedicated to that. They assess whether it’s feasible. And if there are any interesting options among them, we can always decide to implement them in the production version. And that’s how we’re always striving to further increase the machine’s reliability.
Roel van Gils: And do you perhaps have any breaking news for us?
Jeroen Brabers: That's not something I can share at this time.
Roel van Gils: Okay, but there might still be something coming up.
Jeroen Brabers: Something is definitely on the horizon again. Yes, for sure.
[20:23] The perfect box is different for every order
Roel van Gils: So basically, if we look at what we just discussed, there’s actually no such thing as the perfect box. Or at least, every box is unique from your perspective.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, he is.
Roel van Gils: And it really needs to be just big enough to hold whatever goes inside it.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, it’s actually a very logical idea. When you put it that way—that you’re going to make a custom box—there’s really no idea more logical than that. And yet, it didn’t exist in the way we do it.
[20:53] Advice for Businesses
Roel van Gils: And what advice do you have for the listeners?
Jeroen Brabers: Well, if you think this might be of interest to you, please get in touch with us. You can find my contact information on our website, packsize.nl. You can reach out online or visit us in person. We have plenty of customers in the Benelux region where we’d be happy to come by and take a look at a machine. That way, you can get a feel for it and ask yourself, “Hey, is this really the right fit for me?” And ultimately, as mentioned earlier, the answer might also be no. In that case, we’ll figure it out together quickly enough. But it’s always a good idea to start the conversation. And we’d be happy to help you think through your process.
Roel van Gils: And see if it's a good fit for you or not.
[21:37] Implementation Time and Growth
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, you're talking about the period between signing the contract and actual commissioning. That's about four to six months.
Roel van Gils: Okay, everything's still moving along pretty quickly.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, that’s pretty fast, too. We’re still looking for people to work in production.
Roel van Gils: Oh, I see.
Jeroen Brabers: Yes, we’re always looking for good people there. We’re still looking for talented technical professionals. Because we’d like to grow and expand. And we’re already doing that. Feel free to check out our job openings on the website.
Roel van Gils: Well, that's exactly right. Jeroen, thank you for this conversation.
Jeroen Brabers: Thank you for your time, too.
Roel van Gils: And listeners, thank you for listening.
